“The current met office forecases (4pm Saturday) suggests above freezing current temperatures and then rising temperatures and rain into the evening. If you spread salt in those conditions its just going to get washed down the drain. Yes the roads look a bit white, but its perfectly driveable if you are careful as I've just got back from Lansdown. Of course if you feel you have the right to bomb about whatever the weather then you are obviously going to feel the council should be chucking salt about regardless of its actual effectiveness.”

“......and eventually summer will come and the roads will be warm and dry......It's not about what's coming its about what's here now!! For the roads to be so affected by so little snow is a farce!”

“Seems Mr Flame is right. Ralph Allen closed, Wellsway and North Road treacherous, town gridlocked. Due to 1" of snow that arrived exactly when predicted, during the day. I really don't understand this.”

“Minus 10 one night, minus 8 the next followed by snow on deeply frozen ground - why do people think BANES and gritter full salt can solve all problems at a stroke?”

“Because everyone else seems to manage it. There is nothing unique about BANES.”

“Well said MoeXXX - couldn't have put it better myself! although I would take issue on the second bit "There is nothing unique about BANES!" I would suggest it is their ineptiude that makes them especially unique!”

“A few people ignored the weather forecast and drove up/down a steep hill while it snowed and got stuck. Not sure this is the councils responsibility. They cannot magically coat the whole county with salt so life can continue uninterrupted whatever the weather. Remember it's our tax that pays for this salt that would be washing down the drains now if they listened to your advice.”

“well said davei had to drive up to the uni from southdown ,just took it steady and got here in 1 piece . i dont understand the need to rush everywhere”

“My point being - if the official weather forecasters are forecasting temperatures above zero, and we get snow - is that B&NES fault for not gritting just in case (in which case they'd grit every 3 hours from November to March) or the forecasters for not giving a decent forecast - in this instance I think B&NES deserves some slack. Even then, with a small fleet of gritters, they can't immediately coat every road with salt as soon as unexpected snow arrives.”

“Well Dave_Weston my point being - The Met Office issued a Level 3 Cold Weather Alert on Saturday 4th Feb with a 100% Risk for the South West region, and that alert remains in force. So it was hardly unexpected!

The very same met office has issued an amber warning for Ice valid from 00:00 on Sunday 5th to 12:00 - saying that "The public are advised to take extra care and that the ice and snow is likely to lead to travel disruption" and I guess that will take them by surprise too!

Now if your suggesting that 'with a small fleet of Gritters' means BaNES cant fulfil their duties under Section 41(1A) of the Highways Act 1980 "In particular, a highway authority are under a duty to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that safe passage along a highway is not endangered by snow or ice."

Then the history of chaos accidents and closed roads recorded on this site in previous years, and now this year really goes to show that to be the case and BaNES don't 'deserve some slack' rather the opposite I would suggest!”

“Can't really see it's been bad enough to justify gritting the roads but some on the pavements would have been welcome.”

“I don't know whether it's the residents' inability to drive in snow, or the council's inability to act on a very clear forecast, or a combination of both. But within minutes of the snow starting, we had road closures and gridlock.

Any city north of the M4 could cope with this without batting an eyelid. To the south, central Europe is enjoying temperatures in the -20s and life goes on. But in Bath, we get less than an inch of snow and the city grinds to a halt. It's an absolute joke.”

“http://tinyurl.com/7j96l68 - yes no planes were cancelled at Heathrow, no buses were late in London and all the roads north of the M4 were completely clear. Come on BANES stop wasting your money on care, schools, libraries, rubbish collection. WE WANT GRITTERS ON EVERY STREET CORNER for those rare days where you get a string of sub-zero days followed by snow. AND MAKE SURE MY ROAD IS CLEAR before you start doing the main roads - I mean what do I pay my council tax for!!!”

“.. and the motorways were all sparkling too

http://tinyurl.com/7y22y9m”

“.. and in Europe life goes on

http://tinyurl.com/7akpuzu

Clearly BANES are incredibly incompetent and everybody else takes a bit of snow with a pinch of industrial rock salt - as demonstrated by the expert contributors here.”

“wheelie_bin....

Your superb links show up to 160mm or 6" of snow causing the problems, in the UK and temp down to -38C in the Europe article....

BaNES was lucky if we had 6mm and that caused us to grind rapidly to a halt! (Again!)

Now anyone who has researched road salting will tell you that first you have to be pre-emptive not reactive, second any salt that dissolves in melt water makes it less susceptible to freezing and forming ice overnight. Finally snow that becomes hard packed on a road endures longer and remains unsafe for longer, whereas a cleared road will effectively self clear due to higher surface temperatures from sun and passing vehicles.

I do however have to agree with your final comment "Clearly BANES are incredibly incompetent and everybody else takes a bit of snow with a pinch of industrial rock salt" ironically never a truer word has ever been spoken in jest!”

“Now for the doubters out there lets put BaNES response on the 4th into some local perspective....

Bournemouth Council says its teams of gritters will work 24 hours a day, seven days a week to keep traffic moving in the event of severe weather.

Bournemouth will also be issuing gritter alerts on Twitter with the username @bournemouthbc.

Dorset councils will send out gritting crews overnight as ice and snow is predicted by the Met Office.

Dorset County Council will be updating its gritter twitter feed to keep people informed.

Some 500 tonnes of salt will be spread on Gloucestershire's roads this weekend as snow hits the county. All A, B and some C roads are being treated by gritters as well as routes to emergency services such as hospitals and fire stations.

Somerset County Council has 23 gritting vehicles which it sends out in the worst of the weather to salt the roads. Gritting teams are preparing for another cold night after snow showers caused some disruption in Somerset.

Updates are broadcast via its Somerset Gritter feed on Twitter which gained its 500th follower on Friday.

Gritting teams in Wiltshire have been working overnight to keep roads moving but are warning of dangerous driving conditions.

(info from the BBC)

I think the facts speak for themselves!”

“And B&NES says, "Our crews have salted the network regularly during the current cold spell, we will salt again tonight so there is good bed of salt down in advance of any snow." (3/2/12). How many roads have you checked from the comfort of your armchair?”

“Actually, aurea, I appreciate that your comments are well researched, some of mine were in response to others, particularly Moe, who normally comes up with very reasoned arguments when everybody else on a thread is ranting, but just threw in a couple of made up facts this time (central Europe is enjoying temperatures in the -20s and life goes on", "Any city north of the M4 could cope", "every one else manages it" - when clearly they don't!) I was out last night, the main roads were clear the side roads were icy. I knew before I went out that if it snowed BANES were on a hiding for nothing as salt only works effectively down to approx minus 4 deg depending on concentration and whether it is mixed, and it had been VERY cold previously. The main roads have lots of traffic to mix the salt and snow, the side roads don't. I used the main roads and drove carefully when I had to leave them. I don't blame BANES, the conditions were exactly what I expected, BANES reacted as I expected them too. I'd rather they spent my money efficiently, rather than have a severe overcapacity. In this instance I don't need them to throw away salt trying to clear side roads that were going to clear themselves overnight. I happy to disagree, but there is another point of view.

I would like to add that this is not a defence of BANES Highways who have made a lot of roads worse with their management schemes - but that is a different subject.”

“I popped out at about 17:00 last night and sprinkled salt from the 'Grit Bin' on about 100m of the street adjacent to my house it was far more effective than moaning on a forum - just remember to use it sparingly as it only requires approx one tablespoon per square metre. Not because I was off driving anywhere just wanted to help...
It's also useful to know snow ploughs are pretty useless with small amounts of snow as the blade can't rest on the tarmac (otherwise it would be either ripping out cats eyes, shaving white lines or catching on manhole covers and doing an impressive forward roll....) so with the pitiful amount of snow we had last night it would be fairly pointless trying to use the plough, we just needed drivers to take responsibility (buy winter tyres, drive to the conditions and take a shovel to clear sections of the road).

We could of course use all the hot air produced on the internet to melt all of the snow 10 times over, a case of less whinging more doing?”

“Sorry for resorting to emotive language wheelie _bin, but I am astounded by this. I grew up in Edinburgh - not Norway, Siberia or Alaska - just another British town a few hours up the road. 1" of snow was never even an issue. During last year's big freeze, it was (I think) six weeks in (and 4' of snow) before the buses finally gave up, and this was the first time *ever* that the buses had been defeated by the weather.

Bath? First dusting of snow and major roads are closed. Please explain.”

“Think basically, us southerners are softies. In the north of Britain, they live knee-deep in snow, get to work no matter what the weather, keep roads open and eat their neighbours when food runs out.

If it's any comfort, outer London was badly affected and for awhile, all manner of stupid and inconsiderate driving was evident with predictable results. I was surprised to see a bus pull out of a snowed under sidestreet onto a main road past 01:15 this morning. Clearly the 24hr and night services were running, as were trams and surface rail services. This from TFl-
http://tinyurl.com/74pytnj

Maybe there's somee good coming from the mayoral elections this year...”

“Moe, whilst BANES are not a pinnacle of efficiency, looking at the BBC website you appreciate that they are no better or worse than a lot of the country, including airports. When you have snow all the time you clear it - the salt is laid down daily the roads are clear. This time there were reasonably unusual circumstances of very cold weather followed by snow, if it had rained you would have got sheet ice but it snowed. The roads where I live where already white from previously deposited salt. If the ground is sub-zero, you really need an awful lot of salt to make an impact. I lived in Harrogate for 15 years - it took me 5 hours to get home (approx 5 miles) when snowed in similar circumstances. This rubbish about they cope up north is, well, rubbish.”

“Lets just face facts:- The UK is NOT a place where drovers sorry 'drivers' (lol) are EVER going to learn how to DRIVE in any conditions other than a dry, well lit road! EVERY year we have the same ol' same ol' stories of total confusion at the first snow flake or hint of ice! This has been going on throughout my 48 years of being a road user!
Just wait and see what happens again next year!
Rocks, a, than, dummer, of box!”

“McFrank:

In my view your absolutely right.........

Which is probably why HM Govenment used the "Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003" to change the "Highways Act 1980" so as to include:

"41 (1A) In particular, a highway authority are under a duty to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that safe passage along a highway is not endangered by snow or ice."

and presumably hence the uproar each year when they fail to do that!”

“In view of the size and duration (and even the timing) of the snowfall we had, then I would say the B@NES did just fine under 'Section 41 (1)'.”

“aurea_flamma: the snow had barely had time to settle before you were here having your usual moan about B&NES. I doubt that anything they did would get your approval.”

“Oh no rogerh3 - BaNES Council does some fantastic stuff, and I am happy to admit that, I hope I didn't come across as anti BaNES that's most definitely not the case, and I am more than happy to set the record straight here and now, there are many departments in BaNES that do an absolutely wonderful job - BaNES Highways though, well that is a different matter altogether - enough said!”

“Wheelie-bin - there is such a thing as grit. It gets churned up with the snow by cars and turns it to slush. At least that's what it does everywhere else.

No, I'm not saying they cope with everything up north. But this was not exactly an extreme weather event. It was a light-dusting on a Saturday afternoon, predicted by everyone, and yet the roads hadn't been gritted. The result was several accidents and traffic chaos.

Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?”

“No MoeXXX - you're not alone!”

“Is it Salt, is it Grit, what is it and when and how does it work?

Although most of us call it gritting there is in fact no grit involved in precautionary treatment ( Precautionary treatment is where councils treat the roads in advance of frost, ice or snow). What they spread on the roads is rock salt normally taken from an underground mine.

Grit (or sharp sand) is used as post treatment on its own or in a mix with salt; Post treatment is where councils treat the roads during or after severe ice or snow. The grit mechanically aids the breakdown of compacted ice and snow.

Councils spread salt onto the road as this works best when it goes into a solution. The tyres of cars passing over the top of it crush the salt onto the road. This then forms a solution with a higher de-icing capability.

In extremely low temperatures, or heavy snowfall, a mix of salt and grit may be used to aid traction and to breakdown compacted layers of snow and ice.

Now proactive councils can, and do, recover the grit from the roads! (especially in europe)

Unfortunately the saline portion is dissolved and washed out but the grit proportion is recoverable during normal road sweeping operations. Up to 90% of road sweepings can be separated and recovered as grit and sand or vegetable matter for composting, reducing the volume to landfill. The recovered inorganic's have a value of £5/ton, £1.95 of which is Virgin aggregate tax, saving stocks of new raw materials.

Oh and MoeXXX your not the only one seeing the problem! :-)”

“I'm outraged that generally the Scots are better skiers than us Southerners and even worse those Scandinavians are even better. I've been to parts of Scotland and main land Europe that have these funny things on a bit of rope that even pull you up hill, why haven't BANES invested – oh I remember they often have snow so get to practice skiing and have lifts to go skiing whereas we get snow for at best/worst a few days per year so all a bit unnecessary.

So why bother buying kit that next winter probably won't get used.

As we don't get to practice driving in snow either spend every weekend through autumn hoseing down your lawn and then drive across it to get use to slippery conditions or buy winter tyres (half the reason the rest of Europe manages to drive in poor weather – although if you've been watching the news you'll have spotted they aren't doing much better than us)

Finally instead of just moaning be part of the solution - get you shovel out and help out.
The time everyone has spent sitting at their computers moaning could have been well spent clearing/salting our streets/footpaths.”

“Oh for dog' sake. My point was that Edinburgh is NOT the arctic. The 'kit' they use to keep the roads clear consists of grit lorries and grit (snow ploughs? really?)

I know for a fact they've got grit lorries down here too 'cos I've seen them. And BANES council has spent a great deal of time reassuring us that it have learned the lessons of last year, and are fully prepared this time. And yet...

aurea_flamma, I agree with most of your post, but the assertion that grit is only ever used as a 'post-treatment' (i.e. when it's already too late and the grit lorry itself would have trouble getting through) might be hinting at the root of the problem.

Same applies to James_Woods' stock 'stop moaning and get your shovel out' response - bit late by then, is it not?”

“Pretty awful this snow with the city buried under almost an inch of snow. I see the police even recorded 'an accident' on Ralph Allen Drive and... er, that's it.”

“British, whinge, British, whinge, British, whinge, etc. etc. etc.

Makes me ashamed to be British! I've seen more whinging here than when it actually snowed! Typical of us Brits, moaning AFTER the fact!

Grow a pair the lot of ya!”

“Roger: several avoidable accidents occurred but no-one got seriously hurt. Good. I hope we're always so lucky. Gridlock occurred, but the economy probably didn't lose £1.8m.

Best just laugh it off and stop whinging eh, 'cos if anyone else was watching it might look a little bit embarrassing. Best not mention council tax or council responsibilities either.

Bath was floored by 6mm of snow. This snow was predicted. Gritters were not deployed. Fail. No excuses.”

“Gritters were deployed - they were out on Friday night. And I didn't notice either gridlock in the centre or Bath being floored - just reports of a minor accident on Ralph Allen Drive.”

“I guess you weren't out in it then. My wife was. It took her 40 minutes to get from Widcombe to Combe Down - partly due to Ralph Allen being closed altogether, but mainly because Wellsway and North Road were very slippery and everyone was (rightly) crawling.

If there had been grit, 6mm of snow should not have been a problem. I wonder what happened to all this grit laid on Friday night, 'cos it most definitely wasn't there on Saturday afternoon. Grit thieves?”

“MoeXX rogerh3, from your comments I think I finally spot the flaw......

"Gritters were deployed - they were out on Friday night"

"I guess you weren't out in it then......."

The general practice accepted by the industry is that for precautionary gritting the vehicles should complete precautionary gritting of priority routes three hours before the falling snow, and often councils complete in less, then need to apply repeat applications at a higher application rate during falling snow.

The salt application rate for frost/dry or precautionary salting is 15 g/sqm
and the salt application rate for salt in snow is 40 g/sqm

Some councils scrimp and use 10g/sm as a pre treatment.

If the council is expecting 15g/sqm (or less) to last from the night before through Saturday traffic and be adequate for falling snow - then that's maybe why it didn't work late on Saturday afternoon!

Those seem to be the facts I will leave others to draw conclusions on the effectiveness of BaNES highways management.”

“Very convincing argument aurea - I'll buy that as a possible BANES misdemeanour, just not the blanket comparisons with other councils/areas. Pennyquick was closed on Saturday evening by the way, presumably due to an accident.”

“I'm with rogerh3 on this one.

I personally saw 2 gritters in different parts of the city on Friday. The council are not omnipotent, give them a chance, whinging boneheads!

And yes, I'd like to know where this 'gridlock' was in the centre. I'm sure most of you whining fools live in a fantasy world completely disconnected from the reality we all live in.

Sassumfrassumrassum!”

“I have to disagree completely, I was out driving before the 'snow' came that day, and seen gritting lorrys going all around Wellsway, Odd down, and the peasedown st john area - as well as Oldfield Park. When trying to find a parking space, I drove past 2 of them tackling different streets.

When it snows it does take longer to get around, and rightly so if there is a car accident caused by someone skidding on ice/snow then the best course of action is for the police to close off this section to stop yet more accidents possibly happening (hello high insurance premiums?)

Sorry if it took your wife 40 minutes to get from one place to another, but it normally takes that long driving around Bath anyway with traffic. Bath is fully of steep inclines / declines, and I cannot fault the council on this years efforts. I am perfectly happy driving on the road.”

“"Lessons from the Severe Weather February 2009" a report published in July 2009 by The UK Roads Liaison Group (UKRLG), identified that councils should review policy in line with their findings before winter 2010/11, and as a result new code of guidance has been published.

BaNES Winter Service Plan was published in March 2011, the current code of practice "Well-maintained Highways – Code of Practice for Highway Maintenance Management" supersedes that, meaning that the content of the BaNES Winter service plan on the website is now out of date! (and was when it snowed!)

This difference affects key operational areas such as application rates in grams per square metre and frequency of application, and a whole range of other standards such as mixed salt/grit, pre wetted salt, personnel qualifications by City and Guilds, and other best practice requirements to meet the government accepted code of practice.

If BaNES Highways are operating on out dated standards, to standards that apply less salt, less frequently, then its hardly surprising people have cause to complain.”

“@ Aurea_flamma, or is that 'Urea'_flamma?

All I can say to this pro whinger is this:
"What is your remarkable plan re snow and traffic in Bath?"

I'm sure we'd all like to hear this wonderful solution you have? When you start quoting "application rates in grams per square metre and frequency of application" I know you are a completely ignorant fool who has no idea of the logistics something like this requires!

Hmmm? Now I wonder if the BaNES Winter Service Plan was published in March 2011 which is actually 'before' winter 2010/11 deadline was produced correctly?

Doesn't take a lot now does it?

Trolls everywhere!”

“Idd - what the hell are you expecting regarding snow in Bath? Want the council to buy loads of snow plows? - it snows once every few years in this dull city, so it would be a waste of money. Plus the width of streets in the town aren't wide enough to cater for any sort of snow clearing vehicle. I hope you slip a disc tomorrow in this beautiful weather.”

“Hi deniro2010

I am very happy to answer your question fully, and in detail, I will even give you reference links in support of my answer.....(hardly the actions of a Troll)

The answer to the question you pose which is:

"What is your remarkable plan re snow and traffic in Bath?"

Is in the words of the TV advert - "simples!" and unfortunately deceptively simple!

My Plan:

1. Comply with the requirement of the current UK code of practice for effective management of the highways – "Well Managed Highways".
2. Comply with the requirements of the Highways Act 1980
3. If in any doubt about No 2 then apply No. 1 above.
4. Comply with the requirements of the Traffic Management Act 2004
5. If in any doubt about No 4 then also apply No1 above.

With this remarkably simple plan in place then I couldn't possibly have anything to complain about, we would have best practice, and they would have a defensible position.

Until then I reserve my right to complain!

For the reference detail please see the links below:

Well-maintained Highways
Code of Practice for Highway Maintenance Management:

http://tinyurl.com/d58tlu6

Highways act 1980:

http://tinyurl.com/85bzkht

Traffic Management Act 2004:

http://tinyurl.com/6vyolfa

Happy reading!”

“@ Urea_flamma (because you're obviously taking the **** now!)

That is not an answer. That is a politicians answer.

May I remind you and ALL the motorists around the UK of your opening line in this pathetic debate? (I say pathetic because all you have done is repeat yourself, quoted acts and codes of practice and not offered one tiny little solution to, what you seem to think, is a problem!)

"After more than a week of warnings from the met office", yes I think that is the important bit here, not nit picking about legislation or acts or codes of practice, which are all guidelines anyway.

Wake up and take responsibility for yourselves you winging, whining, moaning fool!

If it has snowed.....DRIVE CAREFULLY AND RESPECT THE LIVES OF OTHERS.”

“This thread is frankly hilarious, everyone here is some shade of nutter..apart from me, clearly;)

Arguing about snow I ask you! (I'd never do such a thing personally).”

“Funny. Twice as much snow last night but the roads were clear and there was no disruption. The sudden appearance of the telltale brown slush is a clue I reckon.

@Deniro2010, I thought aurea-flamma offered the official solution in some considerable detail. Whilst I accept we are plagued by morons who have no idea how to drive in poor conditions, your own solution 'to drive carefully' isn't really a solution at all, is it? How exactly does one 'drive carefully' up a hill when said hill offers no traction whatsoever? Have you ever actually had to drive in snow or ice?”

“@ Moe, that your fault I'm afraid for living up a hill. And regarding driving carefully, that is simple. If you or anyone else for that matter can't then, in the words of Urea_flamma, simples! Don't drive.

And like Urea_flamma I will now just quote all the safety acts, and government GUIDELINES which you seem to think is 'considerable detail'. These acts are already in place, why do they not work then?

Wake up and see that Urea_flamma is just another whinger who thinks that they can do it better than anyone else! (Obviously a woman) When, in reality, they haven't got the slightest clue.”