Bath MP Don Foster backs NHS staff in 'cartel' battle

“Malcolm: "No Moe. The bill was completely distorted by committees and in its final form was a long way from what was needed. Lansley set out with the right ideas and, in trying to keep everybody happy, and with endless amendments and revisions, ended up with a complete camel which was unworkable and which I certainly did not support."

In which case I would be very interested to hear your reasoned argument as to how privatisation, fragmentation and competition will reduce costs to the taxpayer and/or improve service 'cos I haven't seen a single scrap of evidence to support this conclusion. Lansley couldn't provide any, and I very much doubt you can, but I'm still willing to listen.”

“The Netherlands is generally ranked as having the best healthcare system in the world. Unlike the USA which has 40 millions on welfare, the Dutch system is comprehensive and like the UK free at the point of delivery. The difference however is that instead of being controlled by a Govt. monolith (the NHS is the third or fourth biggest employer in the world) like most European systems, it is majority funded by employee-45% /employer-50% payments to private insurance companies with expensive critical cases reimbursed by the Govt. out of general taxation. Long term care is funded centrally from a social fund. Low income/unemployed have their payments subsidised, receiving identical treatment to the employed.

The other system i am learning more to respect is the Swedish model. There has been a complete change of emphasis from the previous centralisation. The state restricts itself to policy, funding is from local taxation and responsibility delegated to county councils who enter into contracts with private providers. In addition to taxation a fixed price is paid for visits to the doctor, hospital, prescriptions with a maximum each year. Local councils are responsible for social care and environmental issues.

2008 comparative healthcare costs were in the UK 8.4% of GDP compared with 8.9% in Sweden.”

“stuart_a said: I tend to think the Goverments of both blue and red are decent people trying to do the right thing for the country and most of the people in it, not self-interested class war monsters as painted by you two.

+1”

“"Many trusts in the South West are already struggling to recruit trained nurses." I know of one "trained nurse" who has been looking for a job but can't get an interview, so that statement is nonsense.”

“No Moe. The bill was completely distorted by committees and in its final form was a long way from what was needed. Lansley set out with the right ideas and, in trying to keep everybody happy, and with endless amendments and revisions, ended up with a complete camel which was unworkable and which I certainly did not support.

The NHS badly needs reform to cut the layers of bureaucracy, speed up decision making, improve procurement and get more money to the front line where it is needed.”

“I glean from all this that Malcolm believes the Health & Social Care Bill will result in reduced costs to the taxpayer. I would very much like to see the evidence to support this view, because Lansley failed to provide any, Foster failed to provide any, and the sheer weight of bureaucracy required to maintain the new scheme would suggest the exact opposite.

The evidence - in the form of previous public-service privatisation schemes and foreign healthcare models - supports the hypothesis that this will end up costing more. Not just a bit more; three *times* more in the case of the railways.

But we're not arguing over train fares or gas bills here - we're debating who will be allowed to live and who will be left to die. "Free at the point of use" is utterly irrelevant if the particular treatment you need is only available privately.

Anyone who supports this bill needs to reconcile the fact that taxpayers' money that could be used to save people's lives will be used to line the pockets of marketeers and shareholders.

It takes a very special kind of person to believe that is a good thing.”

“I would agree stuart_a. If Malcolm would kindly refrain from calling the working class too lazy to get out of bed as they earn more on benefits, (a hugely sweeping generalisation) I will not give vent to my true feelings about Tax avoidance and the idle rich. Fairs fair!

I have met and know many good, caring and ethical Tories. Mainly old school types. Without exception the current government and specifically Cameron and Osborne get scant respect or agreement from the majority. Indeed, one in his sweet honest way said to me, the gruesome twosome had destroyed the reputation of the Conservative Party among it's own membership in just two short years.”

“I assume therefore Malcolm that you're showing some solidarity for the disabled being hounded by ATOS.

http://tinyurl.com/d9lttpr "ATOS employee calls disabled people 'parasites'"

Atos assessors told to keep disability benefit approvals low http://tinyurl.com/bptdzf2

Coalitions war on disabled not just about money: http://tinyurl.com/d3epzmq

The war on the disabled people: just winning a few battles isn't enough: http://tinyurl.com/dxxjp2u

Nevermind eh! It'll all be rosy in the garden once our health service is fully privatised and employers overlook the newly redundant nurses in favour of the severely disabled candidate found "fit for work".”

“If I might observe, both mcupis and Viscount_V are taking such extreme views they are likely to go full circle and meet each other coming back.

I tend to think the Goverments of both blue and red are decent people trying to do the right thing for the country and most of the people in it, not self-interested class war monsters as painted by you two.

I broadly support this government, although on the NHS reforms I think they've allowed themselves to get sidetracked into making changes just because they think they should which it's far from clear will improve things.”

“It's part of my salary package.”